The decision to reduce the size of a law school class has little to do with morality (though it may have a lot to do with moralizing) and everything to do with economics. Education is a product in the market, like any other. The producers (law schools) sell a service (a legal education) at a price (tuition) to consumers (students). If there is an oversupply of the product, or the demand falls, then the price should drop and eventually the quantity will fall until the market clears. I don't see anything so moral (or immoral) about it.While his economic analysis is technically correct, education is absolutely not "like any other [product]." I probably should be baffled that a professor at a "top" university is grossly oversimplifying a situation to cleanse his own guilt, but I'm not.
When someone buys almost any other product or service, any liability created by the purchase can be removed by filing a bankruptcy petition. Providing normal credit is an example that would fit into his model. Because consumers can declare bankruptcy and erase the transaction from being a burden, there's nothing "moral" or "immoral" about a credit card company that raises or lowers rates, or creates new cards/marketing pitches to give the illusion of scarcity, etc. The bank retains some risk in the transaction, so economic principles can entirely guide their actions.
Conversely, some jackasses in Congress decided that student loan debt should be treated differently than all other debts. The schools - like Yoo's University of California - sell a product, often with gross exaggerations fueled by fantastical myth-making - with absolutely no risk on the credit side of things, either to the school or the bank.
Because student loan debt is non-dischargable with a standard bankruptcy petition, the risk of a education being a bad investment falls entirely on the students and their parents when they need to use credit (which 90+% do).
At that point, a school's decision to enroll students takes on a moral element. Unlike normal producers, who either have an incentive to sell to those who can pay or can only provide services to credit-worthy people, the schools' abilities to draw in any consumer and saddle them with debt-for-life gives the school a position of power divorced from economic reality. The fact that Yoo even suggests that the market can or will "clear" is perplexing; the market has been willfully prevented from "clearing" for decades by the ABA and the law schools, including his employer.
Plus, educational institutions often invite moral disapprobation by marketing themselves as leaders, subtly vilifying corporate America, justifying their high costs as "good" debt, holding themselves up as prestigious institutions and community-based institutions, etc., which gives them more culpability that Joe the Auto Mechanic, who's at least honest when he says he just wants to make a living.
My gut reaction to Yoo's comment is that he's too enmeshed in the system - and therefore a party to stockpiling some students with unsustainable debt loads - to see a moral issue and moral culpability where it's obvious. After all, if you admit that ruining innocent parties financially is a moral issue, a whole lot of people need to trudge their way to confession tomorrow. Can't have that, now, can we?
Almost every immoral event and practice can be explained in basic economic terms. Slavery's rise and fall, for example. Or teenage prostitution in Thailand. That doesn't make them non-moral issues. A professor of law should know better.
Good post, J-Dog. I don't care if the class sizes are reduced of ethical, humanitarian, or self-reservation reasons. I just care A LOT that finally we are moving in right direction.
ReplyDeleteI would love it if all of you Scambloggers would come together and synchronize targeted activities to further shame the DOE, ABA, and law schools into doing something about the overproduction of lawyers. We could all file complaints with the ABA and/or DOE; and/or we could all petition the FTC to investigate law schools.
Lots of errors and omissions in my last comment, sorry. I meant:
ReplyDelete"Good post, J-Dog. I don't care if the class sizes are reduced for ethical, humanitarian, or self-preservation reasons. I just care A LOT that finally we are moving in the right direction."
I'm sorry but if this is the same John Yoo I'm thinking of, he lost his right to talk about moral issues when he re-defined torture in the Bush II Justice Department, and supported the "unitary executive" theory of American governance. Anybody who worked under Alberto Gonzalez or John "Let the Eagle Soar" Ashcroft needs to undergo a Nuremburg-style trial, then just be shot anyway.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to save the law, shut down the fourth-tier shitholes, then the third-tier holes, and finally cut off admissions to the first and second tiers for three decades. During that period, the system will be redesigned so that nothing is left to chance; there will be classes in the paperwork crap they don't teach now, and obsolete elements will change.
Student loans are not attached to an underlying asset like real estate or cars. If you default on Auto or Home loans, an asset can be repossessed and sold. Default on a student loan and what happens? They cannot take away the degree, it is yours by law now. And they cannot surgically remove your brain and repossess that. SO they have to hold that debt over your head until it is paid.
ReplyDeleteQ: So then How can loans be distributed to the millions of people that want to attend school?
A: Make them non-dis-chargeable in bankruptcy.
(You don't know this, but the baby boom generation of yesteryear used to easily skip out of student loans until the 1980's)
It only took 2 generations out of WW2 for this system to hit a massive bump in the road. I love the scamblogs, you all have exposed a big social and economic American injury, but you are all lost on a real way to solve the issue.
How can we avoid Education-to-Labor demand mismatch in our economy while allowing young people to "explore" and grow up into their life?
The scam blog movement is aware of the injuries that are sustained, but can they lead us out of this quagmire?
Will we have to follow strict quotas about who can go to law school and who cannot? (or any school for that manner) Do we cut the ropes to accessibility by eliminating student loans altogether?
Can we agree that while law schools used under-handed data, maybe some people entered law school for the wrong reasons and were set up for failure by their own devices?
This is coming with all due respect, when I KNOW law school statistics were padded.
But that is why I avoided law school altogether, I read their stats, compared them to the real world and smelled a rat, so I never went.
What I am trying to say is that there is enough blame to go around here, and even after the law schools get sued the world will keep spinning, and we still need some lawyers to do work, so how will we find them, educate them and employ them?
WRONG: (You don't know this, but the baby boom generation of yesteryear used to easily skip out of student loans until the 1980's)
ReplyDeleteTHAT'S THE BIGGEST MYTH that was used to sell the bankrutcy changes. Citation to a wholly useless law review article: 75 Iowa L. Rev. 733
"Student loans are not attached to an underlying asset like real estate or cars. [blah blah blah]"
ReplyDeleteAnd what about unsecured credit? Deficiency balances? Medical services rendered? People "skip out" on these things all the time, and the lender has no security, and certainly not in the bankruptcy code.
And for that matter, you're ignoring that the actual asset gained in post-secondary education is the certification, not any specific brain content. If someone borrows money on a student loan and then declares bankruptcy, deny them use of the certification on their resume. Don't you think that would be a deterrent to prevent optional non-payment?
In the alternative, don't you think private lenders could account for the possibility of student bankruptcy and request securities as a result? You know, as they do in every single other unsecured credit situation...
Finally, as 1:53 notes, the massive wave of people declaring bankruptcy immediately after getting their degrees is largely a myth. If I might say so, it's a myth grounded in extreme pessimism about humans (which, curiously, the proponents don't turn on the financial institutions). Most people are not scofflaws; they want to pay bills when the bills they owe are reasonable and were created in good faith.
It was largely a product of the banks and financial companies' lobbying efforts that we have this ridiculous restraint that has led to skyrocketing tuition. Never mind that at the time the U.S. had a very reasonable system that was seemingly working fine.
In Canada, student loans can be discharged 7 years after withdrawal or graduation. I see no reason why the U.S. can't exist with a 7-10 year waiting period to provide student loan lenders automatic security while not entirely transferring risk. The universities would have an incentive to leave their students in a position to attempt repayment in that time period.
OK Anon 2: Is there a link to this citation, I'd like to read it. It does not sound like a useless law review article, but since I am not a trained lawyer I would not know how to look it up.
ReplyDeleteBeyond that, the bigger question remains, how do we improve this situation?
As we deconstruct this further we realize that:
All Big banks should be eliminated
The Federal Reserve should be Abolished
We should Return to a barter and trade economy using the internet and Simplify all life in the USA.
I'd also like to hold hands and sing around the camp fire with everyone for world peace, but it never seems to work out that way.
How about we just eliminate the bankruptcy laws and lend to students at full risk. Allow the market to dictate a going risk premium in the interest rate. Enrollments to colleges naturally plunge, since few can afford the cash, and student loans will carry interest in the 19-25% APR range discouraging all applications except for the most highly lucrative careers.
Is this is the tough love our nation's youth need? Or maybe a depression followed by a
WW III scenario would work better?
This issue with attorneys is a small sub category of a much larger problem with higher education today, and we are all hoping the intellectual attorney types can figure it out, but all they want to do is sue schools and watch them burn. Vendetta is enough for those who are wronged, but that emotion is not shared by all.
Thanks for bringing those points up J-Dog.
ReplyDelete"And what about unsecured credit? Deficiency balances? Medical services rendered? People "skip out" on these things all the time, and the lender has no security, and certainly not in the bankruptcy code."
Unsecured debt goes at about 20% for a reason, and it sucks to walk out on any check, but these are the shitty things that happen in life. However, because federal loans are guaranteed up front, they enforce it federally and can garnish wages, and hold tax returns. The system giveth and taketh the f!@# back. Saying it's ok for other things to be screwed up is not enough justification here, because there are major differences.
"If someone borrows money on a student loan and then declares bankruptcy, deny them use of the certification on their resume. Don't you think that would be a deterrent to prevent optional non-payment?"
Wait, remove their ability to actually earn income to repay the loan? J-Dog your putting the cart before the horse. If someone can actually earn income from what they learned in college thank god they have made themselves useful to society, let's not stop that from happening.
It's not about deterrents, it's about the structure, size and scope of the loan program in question. About 1 trillion in guaranteed gov't debt vulnerable to bankruptcy? You think the Chinese would lend us so damn much without a guarantee somewhere in there? And what do we say, Fuck you China, we no pay? That's a dick move however you cut it.
Also, with certifications you are talking about passing the bar, getting a series 7, clearing medical boards, but don't those things happen separately from college? I guess you mean College is the prerequisite, so if the degree were pulled, the certification becomes invalid.
Well, how about the bankrupt Dr. that over invested in NV real estate while still on student loan debt? Now he can't practice?
I get your point, but this regulation creates further labor mismatch. We get our wires crossed when we move from garnishing wages, to removing the ability to earn wages.
If you equate education to a product, then the consumer based transaction scenario makes sense. If your Law Degree, or your power-saw do not operate exactly as proscribed, you should be able to return it for a refund.
But I agree with you, education is not like any other product.
If you equate education to a service then you have to consider Bowen's Revenue Theory of Costs, and consider the Hooker scenario. If you get a hooker she will expect payment for her time, even if you don't bust a nut. Well in order to get those hookers to teach law class they had to get paid too, and compared to the world of big law they made pennies in exchange for easy work.
Man, Hookers and Lawyers are a rough bunch. I'm glad I did not go to law school. But at least you know when the hooker is screwing you, never can tell when the lawyer is screwing you.
Point is the Law schools provided a much bally-hooed legal education service just as the economy made a major shift to reveal how shitty the law sector is. It's been festering for years.
Isn't it terrible that by law all those law school employees are entitled to keep that money because the service was rendered, no matter how useless it proved to be in your life?
Perhaps similar to the Tae Kwon Do Academy giving black belts out like kit-kats, except on a much bigger scale? Yep that Tae Kwon Do academy was entitled to payment for service even if the kid got his ass whooped in the street.
Beyond that we need real solutions:
Dump all federal funding for colleges.
Allow student loans to work on a market price.
Allow the market for peer to peer lending to grow
or
Start exploring human capital contracts, the modern day indentured servitude.